It was only a matter of time… You post articles, you write books, you spend hours some days conversing with them, driving to meet with them, researching their ‘doctrines’. Eventually, they respond. I don’t intend to make any sort of a habit of honoring these with responses. I’ve tried, they’re just generally not interested. But, for the interest of study, it is sometimes useful to have a field specimen, of sorts. Occasionally, a piece is worth dissecting publicly, to see what is at work, for the interest of those observing.
As such, the following below is the latest response to my post on Biblically Confronting the False-Grace movement (here). The comment was too long to publish on that post for one, and, additionally, the format of comment and response does not allow for adequate interaction with the arguments.
But, when you choose to engage, you have to make a decision from the out-set. Even when studying and countering the religious spirit, you have to set some ground-rules, or boundaries. It must be agreed upon that if a subject matter is thoroughly proved wrong through a study of Scripture by one party, the other must question their position. Unfortunately, of every Grace-Whack we’ve ever come across, not one has cared that every point has been thoroughly contested and disproved.
Proof Texting
But, that’s it, isn’t it? Because you hold to the Scripture, and not a “proof-text” taken out of context, you’re “Religious”, and they’re “free”? It doesn’t make much for discussion. In the end, they, the ones that truly are saved, are very little in the way of it. We pray for them, asking God to grant them repentance leading unto a knowledge of the truth. We ask God that He would give them a hunger and thirst after righteousness, and revelation that only those who are pure will see His face. But, we don’t spend much labor on those who are happy with their deception. There’s plenty of humble, hungry hearts seeking after God. As Christ said, throw them out, and go out to the highways and byways, that His house might be full… With people that want to believe..
“To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” Isaiah 8:20. If they don’t agree with scripture, why should we listen to them? Even satan can quote it for his purposes, but does it bear witness to the “whole counsel” of Scripture? The problem is, well, they don’t care. So, we don’t care to debate with them, in general.
The Specimen
With that, below is the text of the comment sent in by “Robert”. I will leave his rendition of his scriptures in tact, as he says they should be quoted, but will leave the ref-tagger for the blog to automatically high-light the texts below, so you can read both his and mind yourself.
1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, especially of them that believe.We are already reconciled to God, it’s up to us if we want to be. We could conceivably live in darkness for all eternity, but this would not be God’s desire for us.
Always start with the text. When they quote a verse, go read it. It is usually helpful to consult either a KJV or a NASB, as these are word-for-word translations, instead of thought-for-thought. The verse above is quoted well enough, now, the context.
1 Timothy 4:1 is enough. People will “abandon the faith” and “follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons”. Right there, keep in mind the goal of the commentator is to prove universal inclusion in the finished works of Christ, regardless of faith. Paul clearly indicates the opposite here, when studied in context. You cannot make the case from 1 Timothy 4:10, simply because 1 Timothy 4:1 is saying the opposite.
Reading on, 1 Timothy 4:16 is equally difficult. Watch your life and doctrine closely. Notice the conditional “if”. If you do, you will save yourself and your hearers. There is no need for an “if” if the reverse is not true. If he doesn’t, he runs the risk of theirs and his own damnation (the clear Biblical opposite of ‘salvation’), that is, if he doesn’t watch his doctrine closely.
Again, they’re not looking for what Paul’s saying. As one preacher said, “If you torture the data long enough, you can get it to confess to anything”. There is no way to get what he wants to out of this chapter.
So, what is Paul saying, by claiming that God is the Savior of all men? Well, searching a few appologetics sites on google (such as www.CARM.org), a few points become clear. First, Paul did not say Jesus, but refers to God. So, is this the Father or the Son (the Spirit is not usually referred to as “Savior”). The Old Testament often calls the Father Savior. Jesus is God, but so is the Father. So, to which does this refer?
God is the savior of all men, but not all men are saved. This verse does not say that God has saved all men, he merely says that He is their Savior, which is true. Whether they make appropriations of His benefits is “up to them”, as they say, whether they have saving Faith leading to the Gracious salvation. Is God the condemned sinner’s savior? Of course! Is that sinner saved without believing? Of course not!
A Claim Against Born Again
2 Cor. 5:18-21
18 Now **all things are of God**, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God WAS in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”Everyone is born again and brand new, as Christ has drawn all men into himself on the cross, crucified them, and raised them to new life.
Again. First, find the verse and read it for yourself. Then the chapter. Keeping in mind the whole of the New Testament.
Now, examine his claims. “Everyone is born again and brand new”? Well, where does the Bible talk about being “born again”?
The most obvious is Jesus talking to Nicodemus in John 3:3, 5. Unless you are born again, you cannot see nor enter the Kingdom.
Next, we see 1 Peter 1:3 NASB, we are “born again to a living hope”. The is in the address of the letter, written to the saints. So, he is talking about believers. Next, 1 Peter 1:23, the same chapter, describes that new birth. We have been born again of the “imperishable seed”, the Word of God. Again, the implication is clear. We are born again when we hear the Word of God, the Word of the Kingdom, the Word of Faith, and when that faith comes alive in our heart, that is, the mustard seed has sprouted and become the tree. Hence, clearly, one cannot be born again without the Word of God in their hearts. That means they must hear, understand, and accept it. And, of course, that requires preaching, hearing, repentance, and, of course, belief. This is the “born again” of the New Testament, as attested to throughout the book.
Whatever the commentator is calling “born again” is not the New Testament experience, if it is anything at all. Where does he draw his definition of this term? The Bible defines the term itself, and his definition is not coming from that (only speculation can guess where he can make his leaps at this point). Simply using the claim that “all things are of God” to say that that implies born again flies in the face of the clear Scriptures to the contrary. Yes, the devil actually was created by God, originally. Yet, that same creature chose to sin, and fell. It is “of God”, but it is going to destruction (Similar to the case Paul presents in Romans 9:22). All things of course are from God. That simply makes Him Sovereign over all of it, to save or condemn what he will. The rock also is from God. Does that make the rock born again? No. There is no case here.
Let us continue on our Bible study, however, to discover what it defines as “born again”.
2 Corinthians 5:17, the “new creature” in Christ. This is also indicating the New Birth. The whole clause, however, is indicated on the conditional “If”. Since Romans 8:9 says that all who have not the Spirit are none of His, it is clear that this does not include everyone, especially not pre-birth as indicated by the current inclusionists. The inclusionist tries to make a case out of Joel 2:28, pouring out the Spirit on “all flesh”, but misapplies this scripture and attempts to say all mankind has the Spirit of Holiness. This error is immediately evident by Jude 1:19, which says of certain men, that they “have not the Spirit”. These things cannot be both ways. If they have not the Spirit in Jude 1:19, then they are none of Christ’s in Romans 8:9, and so they are not born again in 2 Corinthians 5:17. And, speculation could certainly indicate that the men of Jude 1:19 died without receiving the Spirit, which would put them in hell. The argument is clearly wrong here, but violates so much of the rest of the New Testament as well.
Colossians 2:13 also indicates the new birth, in that we were previously dead. But, before the inclusion whack wants to run off with this one, saying we are already made alive, remember the most basic thing. Read the text. Read the context. v13 is only relevant in the context defined in v9-12. This is not a formula, it’s simply following Paul’s train of thought. But, these verses clearly indicate salvation through the faith in the Word of God, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and, the resulting baptism. The fact that they are listed as ‘past tense’ is due to the nature the cross being before them, but they were not true of these people Paul is writing to until they believed. Baptism is the outward demonstration of the inward change. Just as faith without works is dead, baptism is not the salvation, but the work coming from a true work of Grace. Baptism didn’t save in itself without the faith behind it, but because they were saved, they followed through with Obedience and were ‘circumcised’ in their hearts.
Compare this to 1 Peter 3:21, where Peter actually says it is the “baptism now saves you”. Again, it is the true faith inside which produces the action outside. So, in this sense, Peter says that “baptism saves you”. Was everyone saved before right faith leading to baptism? No. Right faith, with the corresponding work (proving it genuine), saves. Paul made it clear that not all have faith in 2 Thessalonians 3:2. Further, he wrote that Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Who has faith? Only the man who has heard the Word.
Christ Draws, But Do We Respond
John 12:32
“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Simply because they are drawn does not mean they obey. You cannot make a lingustic case here. Yes, the draw is there, but that’s only one part of it. John 6:44 says no one can come to Jesus unless the Father drawst hem. Simply because someone tugs on your heart strings doesn’t mean you listen to them. Compare this to Matthew 7:21-23. Many will say to Him, Lord, Lord, did we not do all this stuff in your name? He will tell them to depart, that He never knew them, and that they were law-breakers.
The hardest thing, at least for us, in this type of debate, is that the general tenor of the argument is set by the falsehood. Go read your Bible! Study it. Love it. Dissect it. Don’t do piece and part here and there. When Peter says you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls, what does that mean? When Jesus said if we have no dark corners, it’s like the light of a lamp is shining on us, study that out. This type of argument only works for people who want it to. By keeping focused only on these handful of verses, and denying the rest of them, they say they have a case. I say they have a few misinterpreted verses, and the Book means what it says. Keep the broad picture in mind, and, on the one hand, realize you can beat them in every single verse, because it’s wrong, and, on the other hand, the entire argument fails on so many other verses they wont quote that it’s really just an effort in exhaustion. And, they don’t really care. They really don’t.
More on Born Again
Further, John 1:12, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name”. Only to those who received Him is it given the right to be God’s children. Those who do not believe are the devils’ children, not God’s. Notice the consistency in all the Biblical definitions of “born again”.
And, in 1 John, the apostle further clarifies beyond doubt what he meant in John 3 by “born again”. 1 John 1:29, those who do right are born of Him. 1 John 3:9, No one who is born of God can continue in sin. They cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This leads us directly to the conclusion John draws. 1 John 3:10, those who do evil are of the devil. They are not born again. 1 John 4:7, those who love are born of God. Those who do not love are not born of God. Hence, what the world calls “love” is not. What is sung about on the radio, what the carnal man enjoys, what the lost sinner experiences is not, therefore, what the Bible calls ‘agape’, or “love”.
Finally, 1 John 5:1. Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. That is the definition the Bible uses throughout. Belief in Jesus Christ is “born again”. Whatever the claimant wants to say, he disagrees with the Scripture. It is unclear where the claimant is attempting to define “born again” from. It clearly isn’t the Scriptural record, at this point, however. We think, perhaps, it merely is grasping a hold of a general term of Christianity, and saying, “This means that”, completely ignoring the fact that the term actually comes from and is defined by the Word. John reiterates this understanding in 1 John 5:2-5.
Yet, if we want to make the case absolutely laughable, keep reading the chapter. 1 John 5:18-20. Anyone born of God does not continue to sin, but God keeps Him. Yes, we who know Him know we are saved and born of Him, but what does it say next? “The whole world is under the control of the evil one”. That is, they are children of the devil. They do not believe. They are wicked, damned, and not, clearly, born again.
“We are in Him who is true by being in His Son”.
If you do not believe in Him, you are not in Him. If we abide in Him, and His words abide in us, we ask whatever we want and He gives it on the basis of that relationship with Jesus.
So, simply redefining “born again” to whatever it is they think they mean doesn’t do anything.
But, in our experience, they’re no more interested in what the Bible actually says than satan in the wilderness when he tempted Jesus. It was simply on to the next point.j
2 Corinthians 5 – All Died
And….
2 Corinthians 5:14
“For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then ALL died”
[**UPDATE: While I had read commentaries and searched for a better explanation for this text, the below was the best I could do. As it turns out, the case is much simpler than the below discourse let on. It was a little over a year later, and I was in the shower. I haven’t done much with hyper-grace since then, and all of a sudden I had a flash come in my mind concerning this verse, and went and studied it out. Thank the Lord for the spirit of wisdom and revelation (Ephesians 1:17). So, after I looked up this passage with that thought in my head, I realized by “all died”, Paul is simply doing things in reverse. If you follow his argument, he is saying that since we know Christ is the savior for everyone in the world, writing to believers, then everyone has already died and is in need of him. That’s all. His emphasis is on the need for evangelism to the world, and the next phrase seals it, saying that those who are alive are those who in Christ. What Paul is most certainly not saying is that everyone is already saved. For that, you can still see below. You can see a brief post covering only this issue here. **]
Care is taken on this one. Reading the verse, and context, one must also read a few commentaries. The King James rendering of “were all dead” would be the easiest. We all were dead in our trespasses and sins. But, further linguistic analysis appears to make this translation less precise than necessary. But, no worry. Is Paul saying that all have already died in Christ? Only if you want to make piecemeal of the entire New Testament.
Answer this.. Would Paul have faced shipwreck, stoning, beatings, fasting often, sleepless nights, wild dogs, and “died daily”, if it was already a “done deal”. If it didn’t really matter, because we were already all included in Christ, would God, a loving Father, have had all 11 of the remaining apostles die, except John, who they couldn’t kill even when they tried?
What is Paul saying? He’s saying that potentiality of everyone’s salvation is in Christ. As Adam was the head of the race of men, so Christ as the head of all the redeemed died for all who would be saved. The ultra-Calvinist, of course, would translate the “all” to be only those who would be saved. That is fine for them. We prefer the Arminian approach, which simply says that the efficacy of Christ’s death was sufficient. There is simply no way to reconcile the intended interpretation of the universalist-leaning commentator in this verse to claim that it is saying that all have died experientialy with Christ.
Rather, simply, Christ, as the last Adam died once “for all”, so that, through belief in that work, they might be enter into that death that was for them, but must be believed. This is in no way to contradict the plain Word of Scripture that that work is only ever appropriated through faith in the Word preached.
Metanoia – Repentance By Any Other Name
And…
Romans 6:5
“For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection”Why are they still not experiencing what Christ has already made true of them? They don’t believe the message of their reconciliation. They need to repent… “Metanoia”…. change their thinking, and realize what Christ has done for them.
When they change their thinking, they will experience the born-again reality… or they will be ‘born-again’, as John puts it in his epistles.
Why the contradiction? How can they be born again if they already were? Because…..
This is, perhaps, one of the most unique examples of letting someone locate themselves by their words. Bear with this a moment, as we unpack the claims.
“Metanoia” is the Greek word translated ‘repentance’. It means “meta-“, change, and “noia”, mind, more or less, or, “change your mind”. Indeed, this is what the root of the word means. But, keep in mind, Greek Scholars write Lexicons and Bible dictionaries, and THEY translate this word as “repent”. People come along like this, and they WANT the word to mean something else, and they indeed build entire cases upon a translation. But, where are their Greek credentials? You can trust Bible resources. Get a concordance. Get a Greek dictionary. The word meaning, first of all, is clear.
Of course, the Old Testament word meant “turn around”, meaning to change one’s behavior. But, consider the Greek culture. They prized the mind and intellect. So, since they would have considered the mind to be the seat of decision making, to change one’s mind is to change one’s behavior, straight out. The Greek thought simply addressed the root issue, as they perceived it, and said that the way to change your behavior, to “turn around”, was to change your thinking. So, very clearly, if one “metanoia”s themselves, their behavior would change. This is evident in Luke 3 where John called out to them to produce fruit in keeping with their “metanoia”, repentance. And, what was the fruit he called for? Changed behavior. Clearly, the words, from a Scholarly Greek perspective, from Biblical context, and from church history all point to a meaning of “repentance”, more or less as we have it understood for years. While nuance could be brought out from the root words, the wholesale attack against repentance is nothing more than that–an attempt to destroy the foundations of the faith (Hebrews 6:1-2).
Gnosticism Made Easy
But, now, let us look at what the argument above does, and where it locates itself. This is always evident in the language of any deception. For one, the devil is proud, and loves to put his error on display. He loves to make people tattoo defamatory remarks on themselves, marking them as his own property. He loves to destroy and mar the image of what God made. And, he apparently loves to make it in as plain sight as possible.
The claim is that people need to “change their mind”, their definition of ‘repentance’, and realize what Christ has done for them. The responder then claims that “When they change their thinking, they will experience the born-again reality”. But, realize what this does.
The Gospel says that Grace comes through Faith. Faith is the operative element, the spiritual connection to the cross. But, where have they placed their salvation? They say that “changing their mind”, they will experience “born-again”. What has this done?
This now places salvation in the agency of “repentance”, and it is no longer by faith. In fact, this is, indeed, their entire “gospel”. Examine this a moment. They often use lines like “don’t have faith in faith”, or “I have faith in God’s faith”, but what they’ve really done is eliminated faith entirely from their soteriology (the study of salvation). They first changed the verbage of “repentance” to “change your mind”, but it’s still “metanoia”, however you define it, and that never saved anyone. Then, they say that this “repentance” is the entrance to the experience of being “born again”.
They have actually acknowledged, wholesale, 100%, and embraced the definition of gnosticism. Gnosis means “to know”, meaning a mental change, a change in the mind. Faith, on the other hand, is a supernatural work of Grace in the heart of a person to perceive and know the unseen and unknowable (Hebrews 11:1). It is trust and belief. From everyone’s knowledge of the Gospel, repentance doesn’t save. John the Baptist’s ministry didn’t save anyone, it merely prepared the way. Repentance was the preparation for the receipt of faith. By removing every valley and high place, the mountains were made low and the valleys raised up, people could have their sins remitted (Luke 3:3; Mark 1:4), so that when Jesus came, His ministry of Faith could be received in their hearts.
But, by their own admission, the responder above, and indeed the entire current batch of grace-whacks, have deified the mind, the knowing, and denied faith. It is, therefore, by their definition, gnostic, new-age witchcraft.
Grace Through Faith, Not Through Repentance / Changing Your Mind
“Changing your mind” does not save anyone, because it is, by definition, “repentance”. Repentance is something any man can do in his flesh, which is why John the Baptist called men to do it–a work of the flesh. It does not save, but it can pave the way to make it easier to receive faith when it comes. Failing to repent, one often finds it impossible to believe (this is what Jesus told the leaders, that because they had not received the baptism of John, they could not receive his testimony). Faith is supernatural, and, because those who created these doctrines do not believe, they have come up with their own doctrines, and located themselves, right where they are. A 20th century version of a very old heresy.
So, let’s look at one other verse, a favorite of these camps.
Galatians 3:1-2. The well-used, “who has bewitched you” of Paul. Remember, those who do not have the Spirit of Christ are none of His. So often missed when we quote favorite verses, such as Galatians 3:1, where Paul is rebuking those who are now going back to works of the flesh instead of faith, is the context of that verse, those before or after it. The very next verse is as plain as day, for those who want to see it. “Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?”. How did they receive the Spirit, which made them of Christ? By believing what they have heard. Salvation comes through hearing the Gospel preached, and believing it. That is “born again”, and that is what is required to see or enter the Kingdom (John 3:3, 5).
Mark 16:16, whoever believes shall be saved, but whoever does not shall be damned.
Thinketh When?
“As a man thinketh, so is he.”
This is why God calls all men to repent, (ie. Change their mind; turn from their old way of thinking/being).
Again, repentance never saved anyone. Nor does “changing their mind”. Faith does. Who has bewitched you, indeed? Again, the writer locates himself with his words. And, get this (realizing he has misquoted the verse above, anyway, nor provided a reference–Proverbs 23:7).
He “thinks” he’s saved, therefore he’s okay.
That’s it. That’s the sum total of his “assurance”. He thinks so.
Proverbs 14:12 and Proverbs 16:25 both say the same thing, more or less. There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.
Again, if they speak not according to this word, it is because they have no light in them (Isaiah 8:20). Whoever finds themselves reading this, let this stir up just the fear of God in you. We are speaking of matters of eternal life and death. As Paul’s words to Timothy, guard your life and your doctrine, for by it, you may save your own soul, and that of your hearers. If you trust in your “thoughts” to save you, or you merely “think” you’re saved (without faith), you’re damned. The false religions “think” they’re saved, but they don’t have the substance of the thing hoped for, nor the evidence of the things not seen.
When it comes down to the end of the day, the question is, do you know Christ. Do you know God? Not about Him, do you know Him? Eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. John 17:3.
Finally, let us heed Paul’s warning.
Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame. 1 Corinthians 15:34
It’s possible even to be saved, but not to have any experiential knowledge of God. God knows who are His. Let us press on to know Him, to increase in our knowledge of Him. And to not cease this pursuit of loving and knowing, and knowing of love.
If They Don’t Receive
If they don’t receive the good news of the removal of their sin, and their re-birth, they will act like sons of the devil. This will be them choosing their own delusion, but it will be their choice none-the-less.
Again, by whose definition of “born again” are they operating here? The Bible clearly defined it, above. The references they attempt to redefine this do not mention this, and the vague inferences they suggest are not textual by any means.
But, again, the basic problem is the same. It’s gnostic. If they don’t receive the news that they’re clean and holy already? Not even close. They ARE sons of the devil, as Jesus said they were. John 1:12 says that those who believe are given the right to become sons of God. Colossians 1:13 says we are translated out of the dominion of darkness into the kingdom of light. It is not thinking different that saves us, it is faith. And, a gospel without faith is a damnable heresy.
We could save the study of faith for another day. If God gives me something, is it mine? Like, my body, for instance? He gave it to me, so it’s mine, right? So, if God gives me faith, which He does, is it not mine to do what I will with it? So, if I believe in Jesus’ work with the faith God gave me, is that me doing Jesus’ work? Is that me doing the work of faith? None of the above. So, faith, then, is not a work, because it is merely belief in the work that occurred. As I believe, it is credited to me as righteousness, and I am born again.
This is the simple Gospel. The same one that has been preached for 2,000 years. They merely twist and pervert and divert those deluded by it. We must rightly divide the Word. The Word inteprets itself, and clearly defines the related terms in this discussion.
Perish? Really? After All That?
May all men see the good news and believe that they are included in God’s love, lest they unnecessarily perish.
This is merely non-sense. Nor is this probably genuine. Jesus said the devil was the liar and the father of lies. That, when he lies, he speaks his native language. They are not, therefore, saying that they are simply “saved and burning in hell”.
No, we’ve talked with folks like this. After an hour and a half, the fellow, the leader of a work in Indiana, spilled his real thoughts. Twisting words like, ‘though I make my bed in hell, you are still there’, he at least claimed that “hell” is merely a less glorious place in heaven, a suburb, if you will. After all, how can there be separation? Seriously.
They love to say what they don’t believe in, what they’re against. Because it’s easier to disagree than to stand up in assurance and confidence and say Jesus is Lord, and all who do not believe will perish. It takes courage, and it takes faith. But, with statements like these, usually, there is a veiled catch hidden in them. They don’t want you to know what they really believe, because, well, it would then be exposed, even worse than what was above. And, who is it that works in the darkness, afraid to let on what is really going on? It isn’t God, that’s for sure.
There is no soundness to them. Nor, are they honest. They will lie and scam and deny anything that seems negative, scrimp on technicalities such as claiming “I’m not a universalist” but fully knowing you misunderstand, and attempt to mislead, misdirect, deceive, and, well, will they read the rest of the book? No. They have someone else do that for them.
Concluding Remarks
God bless you 🙂
(I truly love you guys, I’m sorry to hear that it sounds like the author of this article has encountered some really ungraceful believers in grace. May the atmosphere of our discussions be one of kindness and gentleness, warmth, and love.)
<3
~Robert H.
To such as this, I often only have one response.
If I or an angel from heaven preach any other Gospel, let them be eternally accursed. Anathema.
I don’t have time for them. If they want to either be the least in the Kingdom by breaking and teaching others to break the least of God’s commands, or to outright lead the charge to hell, I’m going to have to let them. There’s enough who want to be saved. Even Jesus came only to save sinners. You can’t save someone who doesn’t know they’re sick.
What is a gracious response to some of these folks? Take Paul. He’s considered the apostle of Grace.
I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
And,
Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.
2 Thessalonians 3:14
Usually, when you push them far enough, there are only two classes of people in hell. The Pharisees, and you. Seriously. You will love one and hate the other, or despise the one and be devoted to the other. Be a sword. Divide some things. How can there be peace, so long as the sorceries and witchcrafts of Jezebel are in the land?
And, find something better to do with your time… Like, fellowshiping with people who love God with all of their hearts, minds, souls, and strengths, and their neighbor as themselves. That’s the only thing that counts in this life. Not the trendy doctrine, not the fancy “cool new revelation”.. Do you love Him with all that you are, and are you trusting His every Word and believing and obeying it.
Heaven and Earth will pass away, but His Words will never pass away.
His Response
And, for the sake of thoroughness, let us examine the “response”…
Notice the following points.
What Is And Isn’t Happening Here
#1 He does not use scripture at all. He has been thoroughly refuted, and, apparently, he has nothing. Remember, the basic ground rule is Isaiah 8:20. If they speak not according to this word, they have no light in them.
#2 He does not counter any point of refutation, but merely offers clarification. He does not deny any of the rebuttals offered Scripturally.
#3 He goes directly into ‘philosophy’, into talk. He says ‘You believe in this, I believe in this”… And, the entire point is, WHY do you believe what you believe. This is epistemology. How do we know what we know? Remember, at the core, they believe what they believe because they have false teachers to tell them what they want to hear. We believe what we believe because it is written in the Bible.
#4 He appeals to “agreement”, to “friendship”. The “let’s get along” approach is an insipid poison in the body. Yes, Jesus came to bring true, fervent love to the heart. He did not come to perpetuate a carnal, soulish, and flimsy “get along” attitude. He also attempts several times to placate fears. Get real. There are evil people, and there are wolves. I’m not saying this fellow is either of these, but he is naive if he thinks simply saying “I’m not evil” or “we agree” or “I love you” means anything. Demonstrate your “love” and your “lack of evil” by DOING love and by NOT doing evil. Seriously. 1 John 5:10, he who does evil is of the devil. And, they ALL say “I’m not evil”.
#5 He offers to continue the conversation. Why? He can’t even offer a Biblical defense. He has ignored most of my points. He has been completely refuted on the “born again” issue, and shows no qualms. Seriously. While I have done so in time past, we speak the Word and that’s it. The sower went forth to sow the seed. You can’t make faith grow in a person’s heart. Whether he gets up or sleeps, the seed either grows or it doesn’t. We’ve tried conversation like this in the past. They will simply rattle off their list of proof texts, just like he did before, but probably with backup.
The Private Email Response
So, now, his response, in full, unedited, except for his phone number.
Hey brother! 🙂
Thanks for taking all the time to respond so thoroughly to all I said, I honor you for that.I just wanted to respond non-publicly, on a few things.
Firstly there are more than a few misunderstandings going on in our dialogue.
I haven’t done away with personal faith in Jesus being a requirement for salvation… And I haven’t decided or declared that gnosis will save us. I have said that Christ has saved us… And to quote you…. “That means they must hear, understand, and accept it. And, of course, that requires preaching, hearing, repentance, and, of course, belief. ”
We are absolutely, “transformed by the renewing of our minds.”
I think we actually agree on a lot more than you think ( and no this is not me trying to deceive you into agreeing with me slightly so that I can drag you into deception). Hehe 🙂
Without faith it is impossible to please God. Faith is a supernatural gift, which if not exercised will lead to the condemnation that people are already living under as unbelievers (ie. vessels of wrath).
You recognize a mystical event wherein we are co-crucified with Christ at the moment of faith, and i recognize that the mystical event took place 2000 years ago, and my reception of it (faith in Christ) brings me salvation/eternal life (an intimate knowing of God, and freedom from sin).
I’m not as evil as you think, and I have had many intimate times, experiences, conversations, etc. with Christ.
We absolutely love one another. 🙂
I recognize that if we had to have all of our theological ducks in a row, then God would be sending us both to hell.
Lets be honest, we all have error in our belief systems no matter how well we claim to exposit the scriptures.Thank you for your heart to protect the body of Christ 🙂
P.S. Perhaps we could have a phone conversation that might help clear up a lot of our miscommunications (mine in particular). I am a real person with a real and sincere heart, not just some follower of John Crowder or something. I follow Christ, not Paul or Apollos, etc.
***-***-****
Feel free to shoot me a text.I love you brother 🙂
Sent from my iPhone
Thanks and Honor
He thanks me and says he honors me for my response. John 5:41 is a good response to this. Woe to you when men speak well of you. Who gives a flip whether I’m judged by you or any human court (1 Corinthians 4:3, paraphrase).
Non-Publicity
He wanted to respond non-publicly. I understand not everyone even in true Christianity can really stand up to an assault on their faith. Whether he wants to simply to avoid the pressure of publicly confronting, whether he thinks he can ‘win favor’, or whatever, he responds. We choose, on the other hand, to continue the specimen, because it, too, is typical, and shows the depth of the individual. This young man is currently attending college in Arizona. He has not spent decades studying. He is not a scholar in these subjects. The Word says to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Getting excited about someone changing the Gospel is not it.
Misunderstandings, but no Scripture
He indicates “more than a few misunderstandings”. No there are not. It’s quite clear where the wider body of inclusion thought comes from and goes to. It’s damnable. In general, if this sounds ‘disagreeable’ to approach these things like this, understand that ‘agreement’ is the number one tool of corruption. It is how Baal Peor worked, and it is exactly what it said Jesus didn’t do. John 2:24-25, Jesus didn’t trust his heart to anyone, because he knew what was in all men. The moment you make agreement with someone, it establishes access. This is why Paul said, “Know no man after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” If you get to know their human nature, they will eventually slip and fall and make an error, and you may get pulled along with them. If you know them by the Spirit, through discernment, knowing Christ within them, you relate to them on the basis of Christ, and you are protected from their filth.
There is no fellowship between light and darkness. Unless you agree that wrong doctrine is filth, you should work on your own stability. Jesus warned them of the yeast, the teaching or doctrine, of the Pharisees and of Herod. These things are where the difference is made, and the moment you open the door of sympathy in the slightest, they will rip you as hard as they can. Just disagree with their flesh, and agree with Christ’s Spirit. If that’s the Spirit they’re speaking out of, you’ll get along. If it’s not, you’ll hate them, in accordance with Luke 14:26. How to get a grace whack going? Tell them you’re a ‘hater’. “I hate you and your god”. Jesus said, you will love one and hate the other. Why not start hate today? Remember, they love their message and HATE that of Christ. Just watch it manifest, and keep on loving Jesus.
Denial, The Way of the Defense
So, now, he goes into denial. He says he hasn’t denied personal faith, nor said that gnosis will save. Well, of course he’s not doing that openly! But, it’s what his words mean. Of course the devil is doing this in secret. He hasn’t refuted the claims. He hasn’t offered what he IS saying, or clarifying anything. Somehow, by putting out blanket statements of “I’m not denying the core Christian tenets”, he thinks we actually buy it. Not a scripture.
Well, he attempts at one. After quoting me, and doing nothing with the quote, he grossly misapplies Romans 12:2. One has to wonder, when one reads the text and the context, not even trying to be overboard, but has this fellow even read this text more than a handful of times? Yes, it sounds good when taken wildly out of context to apply it to his line of thinking, but seriously. Read the text. Read the context. Romans 12:1 is first of all written to believers, those who believe already. Romans 12:2 is talking about living holy now that one is in Christ. As 1 John 5 said that the whole world was under the sway of evil, not born again, Paul is saying not to be conformed to the world anymore. This is the on-going process of sanctification, and perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. The end result of Romans 12:2 is to be able test and approve God’s will.
The Transformation of Romans 12:2 – Sanctification, not Salvation
“Being transformed by the renewing of the mind” has nothing to do with salvation. Rather, this claim recapitulates the gnosticism. It is merely re-stating that salvation is a product of right-thinking, and completely eliminates faith, and the spiritual work of Christ. The responder can deny all he wants to that he is or isn’t doing this or that. The thing is what it is, de-facto.
Appeals and Relatability
Again, he appeals to personality. He attempts to get on the good side, and be ‘cute’. More deeply entrenched respondants usually turn at this point to personal attacks, railing accusations, and defaming character. They are simply trying to be ‘relatable’. Salvation, however, is not based on ‘personality’ or ‘charm’. It is based in faith in the blood covenant of the Lord Jesus Christ. If you stay out of fellowship with them, even when they turn vulgar, they cannot hurt you.
Each person is a little different in the hyper-grace camps. They love to quote little bits of doctrine here and there, and string a few things together that sound true. Yes, without faith it is impossible to please God. Whether this fellow is sincere in this expression, what follows is not vindicated simply because he can quote a few Bible notions. You don’t get to the end of a road only by travelling the first mile. You get there by travelling all of them. So, beware. The work is a sucker punch. It can sound like Jesus and glory (the right kind), and then, one statement is a little off, and then the next one is hell. It can turn that quick.
They butter you up with doctrines they think you want to hear, get you on “their side”, and then go for it. Demonstrated directly.
Now, his real argument. First of all, disregard the philosophy. “This sounds better”, “This fits my heart more”, “This seems/is more glorious”. Do we trust our own rationalization, or do we believe what the Bible says? Disregard anything else.
Soteriology and Side Issues
Remember, he has not addressed any of the core issues. He has not addressed “born again”. Wherever he gets his definition, it certainly is not the same definition as the Bible. He goes on and attempts to make a contrast, but that contrast is not supported by a single verse. He says he believes in it this way, I believe in it that way.
Again, I believe what I believe because the Bible says it. This was clearly demonstrated in the first exchange, and this fellow has completely departed from the Scripture as anything more than a cursory fall back to throw in little one-line jabs, such as “transformed by the renewing of your mind”, which, when studied out, mean completely the opposite.
But, while first of all they are “arguing over words” when it comes to “born again”, and defining it to be something other than the Bible says it is, does their claim stand any muster at all? Again, don’t let his darting around words fool you. He means precisely that everyone already died with Christ, and that everyone is already a new creation. And, in most people like this, that everyone already has the Holy Spirit, sinner and saint alike. Hence, all are ‘included’ in Christ.
Ignorance and Instability
He has completely ignored the Biblical model laid down. He has called ‘born-again’ something other than what the Bible does, so you have to understand that when he says that, he means something completely different than God does. Romans 8:9 says that those who do not have the Spirit are none of His. Galatians 3:2 makes it clear when we receive the Spirit, when we believed the Word spoken to us. John 1:12 agrees with this (as with a host of other New Testament scriptures), that those who believe are given the right to become children of God. This clearly makes the “new creature” of 2 Corinthians 5:17 fall directly under the conditional “if”, which of course it does. There is simply no way to make the whole of the New Testament say what they want it to. They merely take a few scriptures, and try to force the case. But, as a whole, if you took what they were saying as the starting point, there is no way we would have the New Testament we have today.
He says the mystical event of salvation, being freed from sin, and being washed took place 2,000 years ago. Well, the problem is timing. They know this, and are using the issues to take advantage of people. When I am saved, then yes, my salvation, deliverance, and healing, took place 2,000 years ago. This is because I am a new creation. I am not the old, I am made new. Did the event take place then? Of course. When is it made real to me? When I believe. Once I believe, my healing and deliverance were of course made real in my life by that old rugged cross. But, no where does the Word ever hint that all have that already applied. See the above discourse on the subject. See the clear refutation of their key verses.
They’re “Script Kiddies”
Remember, as stated before, they only have a few verses pulled out of context. They are simple script-kiddies, running around quoting a few verses, without having studied the text. Interpreting their handful of verses would make contradictions of the entire New Testament. It isn’t that you couldn’t twist some of the words of Paul or another to try to make it say something else. Peter himself warned of this (2 Peter 3:16), and he describes them completely. ” Ignorant people and people who aren’t sure of what they believe distort what Paul says in his letters the same way they distort the rest of the Scriptures. These people will be destroyed.” We all know from the news that the media loves to take a 10 second sound-bite and make whoever is the current president seem to say something he never did. We also know that if you put it context, it’s pretty clear who the deceivers are.
He says it happened 2,000 years ago. The Bible says, Galatians 3:2, “when you believed the Word preached”. When Paul talks about being transferred out of the dominion of darkness in Colossians 1:13, he is not saying they were transferred out when Christ was crucified, but when they believed that He was.
His Biblical basis already being removed, he only has claims. I’d like to base my acceptance in the beloved on something more stable than the opinions of man. The Scriptures clearly speak the opposite of what he is saying, no matter how many times he attempts to redefine meaning. A simply study of baptism, as the study of born-again, makes it quite clear. Since we are baptized into his death, it is something that happens in the body. Since we are not a part of his death before true faith exercised through the appropriate action of water-baptism (yes, there is understanding that some people are not given the opportunity for baptism, such as the thief on the cross, but the argument follows that, given the opportunity, because he had the real faith, he would have–to whom much is given, much is required. Little, little). Paul and Peter make it abundantly clear that baptism is the spiritual identification with Christ’s death. As opposed to this fellow, who says it already occurred. This, and many other things, contradict these wild claims. Take any major vein of truth in the New Testament, born again, faith, baptism, grace, whatever, and study it out, and it is clear to anyone willing to see that his claims are error.
More Personal Remarks
Okay, so, now onto his other personal remarks.
Not “as evil”? Great. Well, I’m a new creation, I’m holy, blameless, and free from all accusation, perfectly blameless and without reproach. Not “as evil”, according to the Bible, is hell-bound. Unless your righteousness exceeds the Pharisees, you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I realize he probably means something else. Perhaps this is a jab, but it is getting at the core of his soteriology (the study of salvation). Like Jesus saying, “Why do you call me good?” He knew the man was simply trying to flatter him and get on his good side, and had no sincerity of heart within him. He called the man’s dishonest language onto the table, and corrected him. Not AS evil as you think could also be interpreted as much MORE evil than I think. Should I take these words and apply the same shrewd tactics as the commentator?
I, honestly, do not want to call the fellows salvation into question. Whether he is sincere or not, what’s it matter. Peter said that people who are distorting the words of Paul “will be destroyed” (2 Peter 3:16). He may indeed love the Lord Jesus Christ, and simply be sincerely deceived. Sincerity and words are not the substance of the Gospel, the power of it, through the Holy Spirit, is. But, wrong doctrine is wrong. Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and live holy in this present age (Titus 2:12).
These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you. Titus 2:15
When They Shove You Down The Narrow Well of Doubt
This then, is one to watch out for, especially if you’re young. Notice his language:
“I recognize that if we had to have all of our theological ducks in a row, then God would be sending us both to hell. Lets be honest, we all have error in our belief systems no matter how well we claim to exposit the scriptures.”
This is absolutely demonic, and one of the major ploys of the deception in our hour. The basic argument is, “You can’t really know anything, so why try”. Excuse me? These are not gray areas concerning salvation. I may not have every eschatological jot and tittle in place, but the Bible is crystal clear on “born again”, on the role of “believing the Word” preached, meaning faith, in the work, and that these things are on an individual basis (“by all means save some” 1 Corinthians 9:22). If you are not “sure” of these things, what Gospel are you believing? How do you know anything? How do you really know you’re saved?
It’s a shame tactic. It attempts to get you to agree with the cultural doubt. With his own doubt. “Do you think you’re better than me?” Well, Galatians 2:20 says it is no longer I that live, it is Christ that lives in me. So, yes. Because my God is greater than you, and greater than all other ‘gods’, and the life I live I live by faith in the lord Jesus Christ who loved me and gave himself up for me, because it is Christ in me, yes, I am better. Not in myself, let I should boast, but let’s get real here. Our God is better than any other God. I am better than the world, because it is Him inside of me. I don’t need to appologize for who Christ made me. And, I don’t have to back down from what His Scriptures reveal to me, no matter how much obstinate, rebellious, and “people who aren’t sure what they believe” may retort with non-scriptural, non-spiritual answers.
The statement has a basis of truth, but is absolute deception. I am convinced of what I believe in, because His Word is true. I may have some areas where I am still working out all my understanding on topics, and areas which the Bible is not totally clear. But, none of these are those.
If this person thinks that his own lack of knowing what he believes or his knowledge of the Bible is excuse to dismiss mine, or, more importantly, what God actually did say, he is in for a rude awakening.
Thanks? For what? Read Your Bible Before I Waste Time on the Phone
Thank-you? This sounds somewhat genuine. Yet, completely naive. Study to show yourself approved. Then, maybe you’ll have something to comment on, and not just repeat the latest YouTube “prophet” uttering fantasy. These are neither studied, nor inspired. They are merely repeated.
Again, with the phone request. What’s the point? If you didn’t listen the first time, why should I waste my time. If giving you the Word doesn’t help you, I don’t have the time of day. Maybe if you go back, and study the Scriptures yourself, and spend some real time with them, they might convert you. I get ‘converted’ regularly by them. They change me, divide me, separate me, and deliver me. And, most of all, show me right where I’m at. But, if you won’t even deal with what I said on a scriptural basis, such as the topic of ‘born-again’, why should I bother.
A Sincere and Real Person
And, pardon my abruptness. I don’t care how sincere or real you are. Many people will sincerely and really burn in hell for eternity. Matthew 7:21-23. MANY will say to Him on that day, Lord Lord, didn’t we “do the stuff” in your name? But he will throw them into hell. Only those who do the will of the Father make heaven. These people were both calling Him Lord and were SHOCKED when He turned them away. But, what was the determining difference? They were called “workers of iniquity”, law-breakers. Those who do evil.
There are many ‘sincere and real’ people. I agree with Paul. Know no one after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Get away from me, you worker of iniquity. How can I be sure this is appropriate? The words you preach. No good fruit comes from thorn-bushes. Make the tree good, and the fruit will be good also. 1 John 5:10, those who do evil are of the devil.
Love
Love? Whose love? We’ll see your love by your actions. Do you love me, or do you want to cuss me out and insult me? As a preacher I respect put it, I want that religious demon offended. It’s the only way they’ll know they have a problem.
I don’t need someone to tell me they love me. Even Judas did that. Jesus said it best. If you love me, you’ll do what I say. Demonstrate your love for who Jesus is by living the way He instructed you to in the Sermon on the Mount.
The Foundation
Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.”
2 Timothy 2:19
A Final Installment
Again, remember, we are producing these particular specimens as a field study. It is good to see how the disease operates in the public, so that we can track it and effectively recognize it’s various manifestations and operations amidst the populace.
This particular case is sufficiently representative, being neither too strong or too weak, but represents, by and large, the general trend of these arguments.
So, in a final installment, after posting the first two segments of this ‘discussion’ with “Robert”, I took him up on his offer and sent him a text message. Not to engage in dialogue, but to inform him that his words were published and that I had responded.
What follows is the brief text message interaction. Some editing applied for clarity (typing on phones is not always perfect). I am represented by B, he is by R.
A Brief Dialogue
B: Hello Robert. This is Benjamin from IHOPNetwork.com. I posted your email response and my commentary of it at the end of the same post online. Have a good day.
R: Cool 🙂
I read it. [You’re] the bees knees bro. [10 random emoticons inserted here, sunglasses, angel face, kitten, ‘see no evil’ monkey, starfish, peace sign with fingers, praying person, clapping hands, little girl, heart with an arrow].B: Say what you want.. if you speak [not] according to this word, Isaiah 8:20, you have no light of day.
R: I looked at that in context, I have no idea what you mean. You want me to speak according to the law and testimony?
B: You know exactly what I mean. I believe the Bible, you quote a couple verses. If you wanted to have a thoroughly Biblical discussion, why don’t you address the subjects I refuted. A few examples include “born again”, “baptism that saves you” from Peter. The definition and application of mentanoia. [The] position of faith in salvation. I laid out my scriptural case. Not [fully], but line upon line. You offered a few misconstrued verses improperly [interpreted]. I only hold Biblical discussions. If you do not speak according to the Word, it is because there is no light in you.
[end of conversation — R never responded]
A Brief Analysis
Always mean what you say. I did mean for him to have a good day. Of course, only God is good. My prayer is that He would encounter God, His goodness in the Penal Substitutionary Atonement of Christ, and that right appropriation of that through faith with right understanding. It is my prayer indeed. I have no idea whether “bees knees” is good or bad. I am not sure it matters.
What is of interest is Robert’s response to Isaiah 8:20. He apparently tries to use my argument, text, and then context. The application of the scripture is that if they speak not according to the Scriptures, they have no light of day, no salvation, no inspiration, etc. The trap here is to go with their language. If you take the discussion to their level, they will say they are not under the law. The point the scripture is making, however, is the principle, that if they do not speak according to the Bible (the Law was the only Bible they had then). You would get immediately side tracked with fruitless discussions where they insist they are under Grace and not the Law. No one is debating that, but the real thrust of what I was trying to say was obvious, and he is playing games. His last question was simply not honest.
What benefit of the doubt can you give them? His answer was darkness, and I told him so. I also reiterated exactly what I meant in the closing line of my response.
This then, is a good example of where most of these discussion end up. The objectors are demonstrated to be in contradiction to the Word, they generally still deny it, but provide no Scriptural testimony to the contrary, and, anything beyond that quickly degenerates into your flesh talking. If you can’t reach them with the Word, you can’t help them. Unpack it and prepare it however you want, the only salvation is the faith that will come from the preaching of the Word.
Perhaps there are some seeds, perhaps it will grow another day. God knows.
As for this, though, we still say, a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Beware of their leaven. Expel the immoral brethren and kick them out of your churches, fellowships, friendships, and facebook lists. As Paul said, that they may be ashamed. 2 Thessalonians 3:14
Epilogue
[Update 10/31/2016]
Robert texted me back on the evening of September 29, 2016. It was over two years since I had any contact with him, and he said he came across the conversation on his phone, and asked if my views had changed in any direction.
I told him, “No”, and this was his response.
That’s cool man. I’m no longer a Christian, and just wanted to see where you were at….
We did exchange a few texts. He asked me some personal biographical information, including how I got to writing on this subject. A bit later, he went on…
I guess I just enjoyed other religions teachings more. I still find aspects of Christianity deeply compelling… And this think Jesus must be very important… But I couldn’t live any longer constantly trying to relate to a version of God I couldn’t trust.
The Bible brought confusion. Prayer brought frustration and emotional difficulty. Christian dogma felt increasingly strange and unrelatable.
Meditation brought peace and joy and contentment.
Giving up on the Christian God for a few months took a huge [weight] off my shoulders.
Now I experience God again, but as a non-Christian its a lot less complicated (at least for me).
I attempted to make several appeals, but he merely claimed they were “Christian cliches”. Pray for Robert. He is a soul in search of something.
But, let me ask you something… Have you, assuming you, reader, are a Christian.. Have you moved past mere the “Christian cliches”, to the meaning of them? When the Word speaks of Him being the “light of the world”, is it merely words on the page, or is it a reality that you could make on your own, having known Him?
I merely ask you. There is so much more that each of us, as believers, can progress beyond the mere words to Christ Himself. The surety of faith, not creating new doctrine, but knowing by revelation of the Spirit the truth once entrusted to all the saints.
Let us lay hold of that which has laid hold of us.
And, for those that wonder… Yes, the false grace doctrines do matter… While they may on the one hand seem like a stepping stone to make life easier for those coming to faith, they too make it easy for others to step right back out.
